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  • ML light posted an update 5 years, 3 months ago

    Below is an argument I’ve been formulating for some time and yet I rarely have the opportunity to debate it and refine it further. So I put it forth here and welcome criticism and rebuttals with great pleasure, even those of the harshest kind, as didactic refinement is my never ceasing goal in this complicated regard. This argument is an assault upon those most sensitively inclined towards classic Liberalism, myself included, but I cannot help but stoke these thoughts with great passion and concern. Anyhow, on with the show…

    America is not a Republic nor in fact have We ever been such in the classical sense. My argument stems from long before the first fruits of the Enlightenment and is based on how the word Republic was best articulated in the fragments of Cicero’s De Re Publica. The word Republic is now more commonly used in an ever fluid state that becomes quite difficult to exactly pin down so I beg your classical, or even ancient indulgences.

    As I said, the word Republic (Res Publica) has become quite a malleable word over the centuries, as many definitions abound, but for modernity’s sake I think it’s now best defined as “a cause, thing, or concern for the people”. This is certainly a fine definition but it hardly speaks to what in fact a Republican Government should be.

    One may argue that the Republican idea first stemmed from Plato’s Republic, which was no doubt problematic, then it was further propagated by Aristotle, and then ultimately culminated in what Cicero attempted to humbly articulate to his contemporaries as “a mixed constitution” or “a mixed regime” (i.e., a governmental structure consisting of a Monarch, Aristocracy, and Democracy). Now, instead of posting a dissertation on this nuanced topic, and leaving out many influential thinkers on said topic, I’ll simply jump straight to my closing argument and hope I’ve left enough of an appetizer to chew on.

    A Democracy is the best way to achieve pluralistic participation in Governance but it will always disenfranchise part of the societal Whole and thus will always lead to a conflict. An Aristocracy is supposed to be those who’ve achieved heights of profound Merit within their society (I exclude the hereditary aspect of Merit as it’s basis of legitimacy is painfully weak), and due to the Dignity of Aristocratic Merit, such are supposed to be able to reconcile the conflict that will inevitably emerge within the Democratic process. If the Meritocracy cannot ratify the Democratic conflict of the Whole it is then up to the Monarch to objectively mediate, or better yet, “discover” the best way out of the yet unratified conflict. The Monarch’s “discovery”, or what one may even call a “synthesized historical discovery”, is achieved in the same way as a Judge is meant to “discover” the Law upon each and every Adjudication. A Judge must never “create” the Law, or every further, should also refrain from subjectively “interpreting” the Law in all cases. A Judge is to only “discover” the Law in its historical sense and strive to apply it to the acceptable standards of the whole society. As Law, in its purest sense, is a historical tradition of consenting social reconciliations. I think I’ll stop there for now and therefore submit that out of all of our worst systems of Governance that Cicero’s Republic is the best of the worst that we have.

    • In what respects does the U.S. system not correspond to the Ciceronian republic? (I’m asking out of ignorance–I don’t know enough about Cicero.) Is it the fact that the “monarch” (president) is removeable, or that the presidency isn’t sufficiently monarchical?

      I’ve not studied the philosophy of government, but in the debates I have heard, the one thing I usually find lacking is a consideration of human nature. In particular, it seems to me one of the key questions when trying to determine the best form of government is: What type of government will best restrain the inevitable human tendency toward selfishness, greed, and corruption? Ancient philosophers seem to take it for granted that a monarch or aristocracy will somehow, as if by magic, choose to govern in a manner that benefits the state or the people. I certainly don’t trust a monarch or aristocracy to not be completely self-serving, without some kind of compulsion built into the system of government itself. To my mind, whatever the form of government, the best restraint on the potential tyranny of the one or the few is the vote of the many.

        • Sorry for the repost. I tried a brief edit and it got wiped. Anyhow. The President is certainly not a Monarch, though there are some similarities, but the Founders tried their best to limit them, though in further contrast, they are certainly not the same thing in purely the philosophical sense. In short, regarding a few of their similarities, they are the same in the sense that they can be removed by the people or even God, if you will. They also both must be accepted by the people to a certain degree, but more so in the President’s regard. Moving along. One main thing in their furthering contrast, and more specific to my argument, is that the President, unlike the Monarch in most cases, doesn’t have the power they need to be truly affective in a time of social crisis within a state (e.g., state voting issues), hence the insertion of the Supreme Court, state courts, and Legislative bodies (FYI, I’m no Federalist, but this argument is quite Federalist in nature), but then we fall into the democratic (mob) problem again. This is a profoundly deep argument, but I think I’ll spare myself the writing for now. An Aristocracy in the truest sense are those who are most capable in any society, hence the Meritocracy. That’s why it’s so evidently obvious that almost all of our politicians could never be true aristocrats! Though, on the other hand, I could form a decent argument that they do have some meritocratic qualities in certain regards (e.g., wealth, and status). Aristocracy, again, in short, has gotten a bad philosophical wrap most simply due to the hereditary claims of the past. Of course, some that are not considered the most meritocratic of a society will always find this fact the hardest to accept as compared to those who do hold such Dignities of Merit. Heading a bit further into your argument, I certainly don’t abide by the sin nature/fallen nature of Man, so that argument falls a bit flat from my perspective as I’m far too Orthodox in that regard. But I hear you, and take your point to heart. Mob rule (democracy) is and always will be a process of inevitable disenfranchisement of some part of the whole therefore it will forever be an inevitable failure for the overall good if it cannot consent to a higher merit-based Order, and inevitably, to a higher philosophical Order… as my further argument goes… The days we are currently living in are evidence enough of this inevitable democratic failure. Though, a modern technological argument should probably be inserted as a serious unforeseen element of this now hyper-rapid decline of what is proposed as the best of the worst systems. I’d further like to say something about democracy’s issues with hierarchies but it’s getting pretty late… so maybe mañana…

            • Cicero was a pragmatist in the modern sense. Any approach to Plato, to be fully appreciated, needs to include the numerical harmonic aspect which is only vaguely echoed in the “balance of powers” idea.

                • The “harmonic balance of powers”… this, I do declare (in my strongest southern accent), is the key issue at hand, one that We will likely forever grapple with…

                • Well, I do agree that a pure democracy equals the tyranny of the majority/mob. My own view on human nature being flawed derives from my observations rather than any religious or philosophical stance. Rule by the meritorious isn’t a bad idea in theory. The question is: Who determines what constitutes merit, and by what criteria? As to investing significant power in the hands of a single person, I think there’s too much a risk of tyranny, despotism, or incompetence. I suppose, if I do have a “philosophical” stance on politics, it would be that I believe the governed must consent to being governed by those who govern them and the governors must regularly consult the governed to ensure they still retain a popular mandate. A key component of any system that includes a democratic element is the rule of law; the whims of the majority (and of individuals, for that matter) must be constrained by laws arrived at by prior consent of the governed. Another key component of any system that includes universal suffrage is universal basic education, including civics. The dire state of American education, in my opinion, partly explains the mess the U.S. finds itself in today. Lastly, for any type of government to function, you’ve got to have one of two things: either a populace that wants to be part of the same nation, or enslavement of the populace. The U.S. today has nearly lost the former.

              • … unfortunately, at least for the near future, the question is – to paraphrase the question raised by the nuns at Nonnberg Abbey “How do you solve a problem like Thrasymachus?”

                A relevant question as it seems Nemesis is at hand.

                  • I’m familiar with Thrasymachus, or at least the little bits that we know of him through Plato. His thoughts on Justice appear quite Darwinian from my perspective. Quite a sophisticated Sophist, I say. I’m not all that familiar with the Nobel Nuns of Nonnberg— though the Abbey itself is well known— and their proposed question. Though, with your identification of Nemesis it looks like you’re heading in the direction of Thrasymachus’ Injustice, but I could be wrong as your comment is a bit too cryptic for my full understanding.

                      • Good Evening ML,
                        No intention of being cryptic here. The first reference is to the Nuns of Nonnberg asking the musical question (The Sound of Music) – How do you solve a problem like Maria?
                        The problem of Thrasymachus? … justice is nothing but the advantage of the stronger. Nemisis is not kind to those who intentionally and habitually employ violence to lessen the other. Her intervention occurs when the natural order is ignored. Is it possible that our most recent unpleasantness is the result of the combination of our acceptance of and our willingness to act from Thrasymachus’s conclusion and the corrections of Nemesis?

                          • Ah yes, Dr. Scarmoge. I thought you were referencing Thrasymachus’ ideas on Justice and Injustice. I do think you are on to something with Nemesis coming for those who now enforce “Thrasymachian Justice” in our current day, or better said, those who now enforce “Thrasymachian Social Justice” and the imbalance thereof. Though, I can’t help but see it now as a combination of the forces that are behind Thrasymachian Justice and Injustice, as both these forms of justice are that of “strength”: that of a cunning strength and/ or a strength that is derived from (democratic) numbers; though this definition of “strength” seems a bit limited in what can truly qualify as “strength”. But I digress. I think Thrasymachus’ argument in Plato’s Republic goes something like this: Justice is the advantage of the stronger. And Injustice, in a large enough degree, is stronger, more free, and possesses mastery over the force of Justice. If I recall Socrates rebukes his idea of Justice being only administered by the “stronger”, and thus Thrasymachus does submit that there is, or can be, a “wise rule”, or a “standard of justice” that can prevail over that of merely the “stronger”. Also, to throw a bit of synchronicity into the mix, as I was writing this my wife walks in and randomly says, no joke, “For some reason I want to watch The Sound of Music.” I turned dumbfounded and said, “Get out of my head you crazy woman!”


                      • I have a very different view but we seem to get to the same place: “The form of government, be it Republic or Democracy we think we live under is not in fact how our government is formed.”

                        I don’t mean to beat the drum as I’ve mentioned it before but the Mayflower Compact was amazing to me when I read it as it is a document that was shows a perpetual government that has the right under the British King to form Constitutions as they see fit.

                        It might be said that we fought a revolutionary war and that would be very correct however there is controversy about where the Founding Fathers received their authority for such a document.

                        A major hurdle to prove is that documents like the Mayflower Compact fall out of memory but they nevertheless are legally binding while conspiracies and confederacies stealing land will never be binding under the law.

                        My speculation is that while the Founding Fathers did state that they derived their authority from “We, The People”, that body has never been revealed to us in fact. We simply assume that it is the men living in the colonies but another reading could make it just as accurate to say that this was in fact the British King as in, “We are not amused.” Turns of phrase like this are not silly or personal peculiarities, they are legal artifacts.

                        Is there any support for this idea? When looking up the Mayflower Compact I found the legacy portion in the wiki quite interesting. It refers to a speech by Calvin Coolidge basically stating that the compact was never reneged or rescinded on and still has the full force of law in 1920.

                        What this would mean is that the families of the Mayflower and their heirs derive special privileges from the British Crown to create governments in the US including Constitutions. They don’t necessarily control the governments directly but shape it and may have input from time to time to create peace and profit…for the Crown.

                        Applying this to American history really creates a new reading as to how and why our country is pushed into certain situations that do not make sense if we were living in a Republic or Democracy of our own making.

                        I, for one wished I were invited for a small cup of tea by the British Crown to ask these simple questions.

                          • I reread the Mayflower Pact a few days ago after you had first mentioned it in another feed. I have some thoughts but would like to mull them over. I appreciate your thoughtful response and will ponder it for a time. Thanks, Laurent.

                              • You bet. One thing I will mention since you are curious is that the organization formed by the Mayflower compact may have changed over the decades and since we are not privy to that information as it is behind the corporate veil, we would not know what form it may be in today. I have simply inferred the structure. Happy hunting and feel free to share your ideas if any come up.

                            • Based on my years of education in civics and criminal and civil application of the US Constitution, I believe the founding fathers ultimately formed a Republic; however, upon reflection of events over the last few years’ right up to today, I believe we have not only ceased to be a republic, but moreover we are not even a democracy. The repeated use of the term democracy by congressional leaders on the 6th, illustrates my belief as well as the subsequent actions against those who might disagree. A democracy is majority rule by the people. Theoretically, everyone has an equal vote and everyone with a legal vote governs by majority like a traditional New England town hall meeting – everyone attends, everyone debates, everyone votes. As opposed to the people vote for someone else (legislators, electors) to attend and vote either in the people’s stead or to attend and decide what is best for the people regardless of what the people want. There is story about a very senior and powerful Senator in Nevada who announced his believe in the later philosophy and voted accordingly only to be summarily defeated in the next election by a haberdasher with little experience, but I digress.
                              I believe United States government is now best defined as an oligarchy, with the ruling power openly, unashamedly, and triumphedly in the hands of big banks and private corporations. Alas, some might say it is 10,000 year story.

                                • I certainly sympathize with your perspective as our Government is looking more Oligarchical by the day. I worry that I paint myself as anti-democratic or radically Federalistic with my arguments, but this is certainly not the case, for the most part. As I’ve said before democracy seems to be best of the worst systems we have hence why any critique of it is often met with passionate disdain. But I do view pure democracy as a system destined for failure at worst and corrupted infiltration at best, and further, the idea of a liberal democracy is from my vantage point a pure oxymoron. That’s why my deepest sympathies always return to the classical Res Publica of Cicero, which I believe stems from the same recognition of threat that Cicero foresaw concerning his beloved Rome. I pray that we have another 400 years or so to right this ship of a Nation as Rome had during Cicero’s day, but we may not be so lucky as far as time is concerned. Thanks for the reply, Rheba.

                                  • Well written post, Rheba. Yes, it is a Republic that morphed into a Democracy over time. Today we are barely clinging to that as the widespread election fraud indicated the system can be easily manipulated by liars, cheaters, and worse. Today we see the oligarchy’s influence in Canceling anyone with your ideas out of existence in the free flow in discussion. How long this site remains ‘up’ is anyone’s guess, so I’ve been copying and saving ‘stuff’ for a long time.

                                      • Considering that we take our lead from the Roman Republic, I still maintain my original argument that we never were a true Republic in the classical Roman sense, nor certainly are we today. Especially when one considers the Republican Magistrates and all their varying levels of authority which could often be absolute, highly interchangeable, and totally outside of the people’s immediate wants. Though, upon a second, more jaundiced glance, maybe we are more Roman than meets the historical eye. Further, if I were to place my bets I’d say that we are more democratic than we’ve even been before. Anyhow, if we ever were a Republic we were truly a unique Republic unto ourselves.

                                        • My mother used to say our country was just like the Roman Empire and was heading toward the same end. At the time, she seemed melodramatic – not now. Although she was educated in a small Texas town, upon reflection, I think she learned a lot more than many today.

                                          • Thanks Nidster. I however think that the only democracy ever in this country took place in the New England style town meeting.

                                              • It was widespread in the earlier times, and then diluted over time. Consider the nation was very young at the time of the ‘adoption’ of a Constitution. Virginia was the birthplace of the ‘American tobacco’ trade. Need to research the Central American, Caribbean islands and South American aspect for the gold and tobacco trade routes very, very carefully, and very thoroughly to get the full scope of things. Use of Tobacco, aka Cohiba, swept the ENTIRE world in only a few short years, and that is one ASPECT never discussed anywhere around these here discussions… just sayin….